Mastering Mindful Leadership in Engineering and Tech

:: 00:01

So welcome to this edition of the The Mindful Coach Association podcast and I can't wait for you to meet Kathy Hadizadeh, a former technology executive with a background in prominent companies like DirecTV, At, T, Omnicron, and she boasts an extensive industry exposure spending, technology, entertainment, marketing, and fintech, which is financial technology services. And in 2018, she established Heart Mind Tuning, which is a consulting service and advisory consulting agency to aim help leadership and executive coaching and advisory on human centered leadership to senior figures and companies in the tech, product, and engineering realms. With nearly a thousand leaders under her guidance in the past five years. A thousand in five years? Wow. Kathy brings her distinctive storytelling and wealth of wisdom to us. Oh, I can't wait to hear about that. As an ICF Certified Leadership and Executive Coach and expert in neuroscience based emotional intelligence and mindful leadership, she has knowledge and tools and experience to facilitate your journey into yourself. And she's here to help us hear about our journey into ourselves. So welcome to the show, Kathy.

:: 01:19

Thank you so much, Brett, for that introduction. It's my pleasure to be here, and thank you for having me.

:: 01:25

Well, of course. When we first chatted, I'm like, I got to hear all about this. I want to know how is it that you made the change from were you always doing this mindfulness more executive coaching kind of work or was this something you segued into from other roles in the industry?

:: 01:44

No, I did something that was very far from any kind of mindful leadership kind of realm. I was in tech and engineering for 15 years in corporate America, Ward, so I was very focused on a lot of speed and a lot of outcome and a lot of what results can we get our groups, our corporations, those kind of things. So a very different world is where I come from.

:: 02:14

So that's know productivity and hitting your metrics and know the bug countdown.

:: 02:24

Yeah. Corporate America, I always say, is an amazing, fascinating entity that is based on what can you produce and how can we make revenue and asset is the talents they have to make that happen.

:: 02:40

And sometimes that happens in such a way, and too frequently I think that people kind of get kind of run over by the process in the meantime. And in your experience, does that actually reduce productivity and product quality overall?

:: 02:57

Well, we have to understand that humans have a capacity. It's just the nature and the nervous system of humans have a capacity too. Their tolerance for stress, their tolerance for even the amount of the pressure they can handle, and even their ability to be innovative, it has its own capacity. All of these things needs to be nurtured so that it can be enhanced. And the biggest problem that I see in my journey is that while a lot of people have amazing great amount of intellect and knowledge, they do not know about this fact. And they do not know that all of those areas of our nervous system and our brain, we need to invest in them. We need to make time for it the same way that we make time for our body, for our nourishing, our bodies. We exercising all of those things. That part is always very forgotten because the brain is always working and we do not take note of the fact that it is always working and serving us. So it becomes very forgotten.

:: 04:06

So how did you wind up getting focused on these kinds of issues? Moving from getting things done and being effective in those roles and facilitating productivity oriented outcomes? How did you get into focus the neurological side and the more human side of things?

:: 04:28

A very fair question. The first step towards this journey was while I was working for DirecTV. We introduced the notion of fearless leadership to the It organization. And it took me on a journey to understand maybe I never have dealt with my own fears. It started a lot of question marks in my mind. I did not find answers, to be honest with you. But I found a lot of question marks and I found that maybe some of the things that I firmly believed in them, maybe it is time to put a question mark instead of a period at the end of those beliefs. And that journey stayed at its own place till the time that I had a brain injury. And that brain injury was a very difficult situation because the science as we know it was unable to help me. And what happened was that the neurologist told me you need to relax your brain. And I was like what does that supposed to yeah. And he did not give me any explanation but that sentence itself sent me on a really amazing journey in a way at the depths of feeling like I'm very incapable of even doing the least possible things that the human can do. And that journey part of it was figuring out how do we really relax the brain? How do we really build more mastery over our mind and our thoughts and build more capacity in our nervous system so we can have more resilience. Because life always things can happen. The only constant in life is change as we know it. But always the change is not for positive or what we are expecting. Sometimes changes towards challenging times. How do we prepare ourselves for that? So I went on a journey to heal myself and that journey of healing myself led to a discovery of a word beyond the intellect at the level and at the field that I had.

:: 06:53

So that's an amazing story. So when you started this journey, what did you explore? How did you begin to say you know, I'd like to figure this out. Like how does my nervous system actually I'm putting paraphrasing here so please help me if I don't get this right, how does this actually work? How do I actually make this work? How did you begin to explore that?

:: 07:14

So one thing that I was facing with at that time was that my ability to use my brain had considerably diminished because of that degree. So a few minutes of talking and my energy was depleted. I couldn't talk anymore. My head would start hurting. People would come to see me from far away and I would be able to see them for maybe 1 minute and then my mom had to tell them sorry and I had to go and sit in the dark and deal with the headache. So I could see how my capacity has diminished considerably. And I was thinking, how do I change that? And I didn't know how to change that. To be honest with you, Brett, I was not able to browse the internet. So Dr. Google was out of question and I was not able to talk on the phone. So even reaching out to other people was so challenging. Yeah, it was very challenging because I was in my own cocoon and I had two little kids at that time, which gave me just a lot of regret and why can't I leave in my kids? Why can't I care for them?

:: 08:31

The other thing that stands out for me is the contrast between who you were and who you had become through no fault of your own.

:: 08:38

Absolutely. That was a very huge challenge. I'm so glad that you named it because I was going to cranial sacral therapy to help me at that time. And this lady, God bless her soul, constantly was telling me you need to surrender. And I was like, surrender.

:: 08:56

What does mean?

:: 08:57

What do I need to do? What is this surrender thing you are talking about? I was so far off the brain, surrender.

:: 09:04

How do I get stuff done here?

:: 09:07

Exactly? How do I get well, so what is this surrender business? And really it might be interesting for us to mention that, that she was holding my head in her hands and she was saying, Kathy, I see the left side is really heavy, but your right side is kind of empty. And I was like, wow, this is really interesting. How does she feel that? I don't know what to make out of that. But later on in my journey I was able to make some sense out of it. I actually went to a doctor of Osteopathy, like maybe a year after that that he said, okay Kathy, now we are going to shift your brain and we're going to move parts of it from this side to the other side. Honestly, for your audience, it's probably unbelievable because it was very unbelievable for me. If I was not sitting lying down at that table hearing these words myself, I would be like, how can you shift the brain from one side to the other side of it. Seriously. But later on, and maybe all these people said this figuratively, I don't really know. But one thing I learned that was important was that I had become very mind driven. Like really focusing heavily on my ability of my brain and my cognitive ability and losing touch with my own heart. That had happened across the journey of years that I spent with corporate America. And part of it was I could see that I had grown a lot of fear. I come from a very heart driven culture originally, and that word I have lots of amazing stories that I did not take no for an answer. I was programmed in a way that if you want something and if your heart really wants something, you're going to find a way and you shouldn't be afraid. And I have done really interesting things with that belief. But along the years coming to this country and establishing a life and going through layoff and changes and being the only woman in the room many times exactly. So all of those I had grown a lot of fears and I was really like making relying on what? Does it make sense to do this, does it make sense to do that? But sometimes you need to just say, how do I feel about this?

:: 11:43

Yes.

:: 11:44

And I had lost that. And maybe that left and right brain thing that that lady was referring to, I think in my mind that was what she was referring to. But at that moment, I was so lost in this whole thing that I wasn't able to see it.

:: 12:01

And so how did you get that wired up? Like, how was it that you came to feel that your heart didn't have its voice, so to speak, in your world as much as it does now and stepping into that in a conscious way? So here you're doing all this work and they're saying we need to shift your brain and one side is heavier than the other and you're struggling with all of this. So how was it that this came into focus, that this is a heart mind connection that needs to be rewired a bit?

:: 12:36

Good question. It took me many hours of silence. I was in silence pretty much for the first year, year and a half after. And I was meditating for a lot of hours at that time. And it happened that as I was finding my way through the mindfulness practice, I ended up being with an amazing teacher that she was teaching at that time, mindful aging. And she told me when I approached her, she said, come become my teaching assistant in the class and be with this class. And I was like, sure, I will do that, even though my ability was very limited. And this is like one year and a half after this injury had happened. And I went to a class that everybody was much older than me. It was mind blazing. Everybody was much older than me, and their ability was bigger than me. I couldn't drive at that time. And people were talking about the fact that they cannot drive at night or they cannot drive when it rains because their eyes do not see very well. I was like, okay, I'm a living example that I'm much younger than you. It was a very interesting situation because for them, I was very fascinating. And for me, I was very fascinated by the fact how much I'm unable to do things. And in dance class, there was a moment that this instructor said, okay, now I want you all to focus on writing your obituary. So imagine that you've passed and what do you want to be said about you? And I connected with my heart. It wasn't about what makes sense or what doesn't make sense. You, how much more crazier can it be to imagine your own funeral? And I really connected with my heart, and I was like, what I want to happen in that day? And I wrote a lot with this stream of consciousness kind of feeling in my handwritten journal at that time. And then I looked and I was like, but I don't know how to get to this point. And then this is what I want to share with the audience. This is the beauty of the heart. You do not need to know how to get to it. If you really connect with what is it that is your vision, what is it your heart wants? Your brain is there to serve you. So later on, I wrote this quote, which became a cornerstone for my business and a lot of things, which is, your heart knows the way. Let your mind take you there, which I really 100% now believe in, that we disregard the power of our heart many times.

:: 15:44

I'm feeling my heart now. Wow, what a great story. And so you were able to write while you were connected to your heart, and that's like, oh, wow. So that was that other side of your brain starting to work a little bit.

:: 16:05

Exactly. Finally, that shift was happening that the people were trying to help me for that past year and a half prior to this moment.

:: 16:13

And so you had that insight. So here you have this insight, and then what do you do now? It's like, at some point or where I know we spoke a little bit that you studied at the UCA Lab Influence Center and with Diana Winston. And so where did that learning come involved in this whole story?

:: 16:34

So two things really helped me in seeing this injury in a different way, because this injury, I'm not going to lie to you, for the first almost year, I was looking at it as a care. So I was like, what happened? Especially because having a diagnosis that there is no medication, there is no procedure. And they say, okay, you are on your own is a really tough situation. Every person that gets a concussion, there is a 15% to 20% chance that they develop the condition that I developed, which was a post concussion syndrome. And so the first year, I was very much in the dark, kind of maybe like almost the first year, maybe a little bit less. And then during this year, I think it was six, seven months after the injury, I hired a coach. And she was fantastic. She really helped me see things in a different way. So coaching came into picture. And at The Mindful Coach Association Research Center Diana I went to see Diana at UCLA Hammer at a time that I couldn't drive. I can't tell you what I have gone through with a lot of these things to just figure out what to do. I went to the Hammer and I sat through the meditation, because there's a walking meditation that was happening in person at that time at Haber Museum in Los Angeles. And I went and sat and I waited to talk to Diana. At that time, I didn't know Diana. And so I went and talked to Diana briefly. And Diana said, Walk with me to my car so we can talk while I'm walking. And I couldn't tell her that this is really hard for me to be able to talk and walk with you as you're doing. I'm going to get really bad. But I couldn't tell her at that moment. So I just said, okay, just bear with it. And I did that. And then after that, I couldn't even look at my phone to get an Uber to go back home. I was that bad. So I came and sat at the Hammer, and I was like, okay, just let me just sit here till I feel my husband. Yeah, to be able to do something and be able to go back home while I'm sitting there, it was really interesting. Mitra Manish, the lady who became later one of my teachers, she was having a mindful gazing experience, offering a mindful gazing experience at Hammer at that day. And I'm sitting there dealing with this headache, and I was like, okay, I'm just watching it because I'm not able to follow the thing. And as I was watching it, I was mesmerized by how things were unfolding in two people sitting in front of each other, just gazing into each other's eyes in silence. And I was like, wow, this is pretty amazing. And I thought to reach out to Mitra that moment, I said, okay, when I feel better, I will just go and find about her and reach out. So I found things little by little. So I found coaching. I found a The Mindful Coach Association Research Center. I reached out to Mitra when I was able to write a little bit, and Mitra responded to me. So I was like a pilgrim that I was trying to find little things to help myself at that time.

:: 20:15

Sure.

:: 20:16

And coaching and Mindfulness tremendously helped me with my healing journey from 100% disabled at that time to little by little coming back to life. So that's why later on I really was like, okay, I really want to do more of that. And December 2017, I told my husband that I want to register the name of my company. And he one day carved out time out of his work, and he took me to the city of Los Angeles just to put the name down there to make me happy, because at that time, I wasn't able to do anything like this. And I had to go through the training and all of those kind of things, but it was just like, let's just get it started. And that was very memorable.

:: 21:09

That sounds amazing. And so you decided in this whole process at some point to you had gained enough of yourself back and a voice and a connected space and somehow you said, I'm going to go and help leaders in these industries. So how did that come into focus as this is what I'm going to do. It's not my healing journey anymore. It's not just about my healing journey anymore. It's about other people's healing journey.

:: 21:39

Right. So that transition happened because when I was thinking about, okay, if I'm gaining a little bit of myself back little by little, so where do I want to go with this? Do I want to go back if I am ever able to get my capacity to some degree back? Do I want to go back to corporations and be that tech leader that I was or do I want to do something else in life? And I was like, I don't want anybody to go through what I have gone through, honestly. And I think a lot of that was my lack of knowing how to navigate myself. That is the piece that is missing, I think, for a lot of leaders. Like I was a woman and I was a mom and I was a technology leader and all of those kind of things. But there was a lot happening in my world and I was thinking that I am kind of endless with my capacity. I was driving and interviewing people to bring to my team and I was thinking, oh my God, I'm so good. I'm multitasking. I wasn't multitasking. I was putting too much pressure on my brain, frankly speaking. So I had that shift of perspective of what can you do to take care of yourself and still be an amazing leader for your people, be able to be there for them, be a human centered leader while not crashing and burning and burning out. That's a really huge thing in life.

:: 23:11

And also not creating an environment where other people are crashing and burning out.

:: 23:15

Because you're not taking care of thank you.

:: 23:19

Because until you can do that for yourself, you're just going to wind up creating that for everybody else around you. That's fabulous that you decided to focus on that work. So you're looking at, do I go back into tech and become do I want? And some part of you is going like, I'm not that. I'm not that anymore. I'm I'm somebody else. And so you decided, though, to focus on the leaders in that work. And so I'm curious about how that became your focus, as they call it, coaching, like your niche. Right. And you're doing that very well, and I'm just curious how that became the main focus of your work.

:: 24:03

Very good point. And this is actually very good for coaches. As they are listening to this. Some of the coaches will think that, oh yeah, I can serve anybody in the world, right? Yeah, I can serve the world too. Right. But there is something in there that I wanted to talk about, which is I experimented first. Coming from that injury, I was thinking first, like, maybe I can help people who are dealing with a chronic cognition or pain or those kind of things.

:: 24:31

Right. It seems to me like you really went into a very difficult learning experience from recovering from a concussion like that and teaching yourself how to there's got to be a lot of value in that.

:: 24:42

So that was my initial thought, that maybe that's the kind of people I can serve. I had a friend at that time who had a wife who I knew, his wife, too, and his wife was diagnosed with breast cancer. And she approached me if I can help her with some mindfulness coaching. And I was like, okay, yeah, let's experiment. And I had experimented with some people during my coaching certification, too. I coached, I think, like six, seven people during my coaching certification because I was very keen to see how this thing works. This was a different word for me, and I really was curious to see how this thing is going to work. How is this going to help people? How is this going to change their life? I mean, I experienced it because I was in a very difficult time. So I was like, okay, how does it work for people who are not in dire straits? Like I was so I experimented some with her, and I learned something, which is I don't have the capacity to be with other persons suffering at that level.

:: 25:58

Yeah, exactly.

:: 26:00

It wasn't me. Every time we met, I was like, I have to go and meditate for an hour myself to put myself back together. There are people who are much stronger probably than me in that capacity. And even though I got later on certified in trauma informed mindfulness coaching and all of that, I was like, that's not me. So I experimented with that path. I experimented with entrepreneurs a lot and still entrepreneurs. The funders in tech, I work with them, but I wanted to see who are the people that I can connect with and I can serve them best. And really leaders in engineering and tech, I saw how I can change their journey in life and in their leadership for themselves, for their organizations, for their teams, for the lives of the people of their teams. So that's what through the trial and error kind of and going and experimenting, really and trying to coach people, I learned that this is where I want to be at this time because I speak their language, I have lived their life. And I can have an added bonus of I do not only coaching, but sometimes I can do the advisory because people are all sometimes it's more than coaching. Like really, Kathy, what do I do? How do I navigate this thing? That organizational savviness is something that I have that maybe a lot of people in this field.

:: 27:35

And you bring up a really good point there because there is something about and people who haven't worked in large organizations, and I'm not trying to say they're better or worse, it's just a missing experience. But I worked for Microsoft and some other big companies and once you work in a billion dollar 100,000 person corporation, they just function differently than your local stores or your local businesses with 100 or fewer people or even 200 people. I worked at a company with 1000 people called Riverbed and it was similar in some ways, but when you worked at an enterprise level, that's a really different environment that is and there's a certain sort of, I should say someone like you could really be helpful with navigating the complexities of those systems in a mindful way. So I think it's spot on that you're offering advice from a human informed point of view. Am I saying that right?

:: 28:41

Yeah. I am very cautious about making sure people understand what part of it is coaching, what part of it is advisory. Because coaching has its own merits in terms of a journey, especially because I was trained as an integral coach and we look at the whole person journey, but it is not always all that one needs. When you are in a corporate world, when you have to face how do I fire people? How do I lay off 5% of my workforce? These are tough situations and people, if they haven't been on the other side of the table, you don't know what it means to lose your livelihood within a matter of five minutes of HR conversation. Sometimes that they're like sorry, business decision has nothing to do with you. And no matter how much they tell you that, you will think about why me? And why not so and so person. There are all of these nuances about this and I'm so glad, Brett, you brought it up. Recently I was in a coaching symposium that there was a lady who was an MCC and she said, oh, I.

:: 29:54

That'S a Master Certified Coach, right?

:: 29:56

Yes, Master Certified Coach. And she was saying, oh, I go and find a person who has never done anything that I have done as my coach. And she was looking at it that anybody can coach anybody. I do not see things like that. Maybe for certain things you can do that. I mean, as a human, you can definitely coach on certain human things. But there is a niche, there is something that each of you can be really good at, is like there are people who are dating coaches or there are people who are relationship coaches. I think it is important to have that understanding of what is it that really I can bring to the table that can make a difference in people's lives.

:: 30:42

So what would you say to a coach that's hearing you and going, well, how can I find what that is for me? How can I help discover that for myself?

:: 30:53

Yeah. So I would say that there is this Ikigai method of japanese method of Ikigai to really connect with what is it that you're really good at, what are your skills and what is your passion and find that overlapping space between these three circles. I think it is absolutely important that somebody spends time and energy in doing that if they are starting their coaching business journey. I personally, even though I knew that I want to serve leaders in tech and engineering after sometime, after like three, four years or three years or so that I had been thinking about this, I knew that this is a population I want to serve. But still, I worked with a marketing coach that helped me think about how do I want to approach this? Like I have worked in their shoes, but how do I approach it in a way that they can see benefiting what I can do for them. That's a really key difference. So your people need to be your people. I mean, the people who are listening to us, they need to be able to see who are the people that I can write down their pain points and challenges and feel like I know that word. Because you need to be able to connect with a person's pain point and challenges so that you can show them what the journey of coaching looks like for them.

:: 32:32

Yeah, nice. So if you as a coach can sit down and say here's, like you said, the pain points, are you struggling with insert the blank? And you know there are people struggling with that because you know about it, right? Let's just say struggling with finding your voice in leadership roles or finding a way to be the artist that you wanted to be. Like, are you stumbling with blocks along that and you can say what's it feel like to feel like you're never. Going to express yourself as fully as you wish. And you can really name that in a way that people go, oh yeah, that's me. Then you're onto something in terms of what your focus might be.

:: 33:22

Yeah. And actually, because I was a director of database marketing for a company at some point, so I really had focused on marketing. I had worked in the marketing field I know, in tech, but in that field. So I paid a couple of somebody who helped me with navigating this from a different perspective. And I even helped some people to look to think about it differently because people go to coaching school and the coaching school doesn't give you these things.

:: 33:53

That's right, they don't.

:: 33:54

At least the coaching schools that I know, even they are the best coaching schools in the industry. They focus on you becoming a good coach. And like the coaching school I went to, it was more about the body of a coach, how you can sustain coaching. Because, frankly, being fully present with another human being for 50, 60 minutes and continuing that thread of thought for six months to a year is not an easy thing. You need to have trained your brain and mind for having that kind of a presence and capacity. So they prepare a good coaching program will prepare you for that, for asking the right questions, a lot of other things. But they do not talk to you about how do you market yourself, how do you sell this thing that you paid, I don't know, $50,000 for it?

:: 34:45

Yeah. And there are plenty of people out there that are happy to put you in their $15,000 Mastermind to teach you that. But they're not coaches. They're selling to coaches.

:: 34:54

Exactly.

:: 34:54

I hear what you're saying and I appreciate that. I think The The Mindful Coach Association Association at some point is going to step in to do some of that for coaches and hopefully we'll do it in a more, how should I say less capitalistic way and more of service and at the same time have it be self sustaining. I'm very interested in that. So when we do that, I might look you up for some advice.

:: 35:19

We can talk about that, Brett, because I did it for a couple of people. A couple of people came to me. We did some spot coaching sessions on that to just get them this mentality of I can serve anybody. I don't believe in that, honestly. You need to know who you can serve best and everybody will have that real coaches. Because I don't think this is my philosophy. I don't think coaching is a profession that you go and choose. It like computer science or history or whatever the case. There is a calling somewhere, like something happens that you decide to go to this journey. Yes, that calling is an important factor. Why did that calling happen? Who do you want to serve because of that? Calling, so that needs to be hashed out.

:: 36:08

It's so true. And I love you that you mentioned that, because it's a big distinction between, hey, I'm going to program a computer, and that's fun and cool and interesting, but it usually doesn't feel like my life's mission. I'm in my heart, I'm a coder and I'm not saying there aren't people like that, but in my experience, because I used to do that too, it was fun for me and it pays well, but it wasn't exactly my life's work, so to speak.

:: 36:38

Yeah.

:: 36:40

And when we're having these meetings at The The Mindful Coach Association Association and sometimes I'll just say, take a look at everybody in the room here and know that everyone here has said yes to, I want to be of service to the world, I want to help people. And it's a really powerful feeling when you're in a room of people that we're all there because we want to be of service.

:: 37:03

Absolutely.

:: 37:05

Well, how can people find you to connect with the goodness that you're doing and see learn more about your work?

:: 37:12

I would love for people to reach out to me on LinkedIn. Of course I have a website, but LinkedIn is great because this way I can learn about them. I would love to learn about them and they can reach out for connection and I will accept their connection. Just tell me that you heard this recording and why do you want to connect and yeah, I think LinkedIn is a great way to stay connected.

:: 37:38

I'll have all the links to your website and to LinkedIn profiles and your other handles on the show notes so that people can reach out to that. It's just been great. So before we wrap this up, it's like, this is the The Mindful Coach Association podcast. So what could you say to a coach that would help them be more mindful and present? Like you said, it's a process to learn about how to be more present and sustain this presence. What would be a takeaway that someone could use right away, if possible, in their work to help them be a more mindful and present coach?

:: 38:12

So what I can say is that it's based on what Lao said, the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. And I'm not asking you to go and meditate every day for an hour. That might be a far reaching goal, but I think you can start with meditating for five minutes, for even 1 minute, and really see if you can be present with yourself for that 1 minute or five minute. That's really the first step into building the capacity to be present with another human being for 60 minutes.

:: 38:47

And when I hear you say that these aren't just good words, you really learned this all over again when you had to rewire yourself, like, can I just be present with myself for a minute? I just have such deep respect for having walked that hard line for you, that tough road. So thank you for doing that work and for the work that you're doing in the world and for being a force, for bringing more humanity into our organizations, into people's lives. I really appreciate it.

:: 39:22

Thank you. I'm grateful to all the wonderful teachers and coaches I have had along the way. We mentioned them. So I just wanted to mention that how grateful I am to all of them. And thank you for having me. Brettt.

:: 39:33

You're welcome. We'll talk soon.