Rewriting Pain – The MindBody Approach
Chronic pain is one of the biggest reasons for disability in the world, globally. And it's a blind spot in the current medical community and the state that they're in. So don't give up hope.
Chronic pain affects millions worldwide, often leaving sufferers feeling hopeless and misunderstood. In this enlightening episode of The Mindful Coach Podcast, I sit down with Rob Lieblein, a life coach and member of the Mindful Coach Association who specializes in mind-body approaches to chronic pain conditions. Rob shares his personal journey from debilitating pain to recovery, offering hope and practical insights for those struggling with persistent discomfort.
A Personal Path to Healing
Rob's story begins with a rotator cuff surgery that spiraled into a year-long battle with widespread pain. Despite seeking help from numerous medical professionals, he found no relief until he discovered the concept of neuroplastic pain. This revelation led him to explore mind-body approaches that ultimately transformed his life and inspired his current work.
Understanding Neuroplastic Pain
Rob explains the concept of neuroplastic pain, a condition where the brain generates pain signals in the absence of physical damage. He highlights how stress, emotions, and learned patterns can contribute to this phenomenon, emphasizing the importance of addressing the mind-body connection in healing.
Key Insights:
- • The role of stress and life changes in triggering chronic pain
- • How the pain-fear cycle can amplify and perpetuate symptoms
- • The importance of ruling out structural issues before exploring mind-body approaches
Practical Techniques for Pain Management
Rob shares several strategies that can help individuals manage and potentially overcome chronic pain:
- • Somatic tracking: A mindfulness technique for observing bodily sensations without judgment
- • Self-compassion practices: Tools for reducing anxiety and breaking the pain-fear cycle
- • Gradual reengagement: Safely increasing physical activity to rebuild confidence in one's body
Hope for Healing
Rob's message is clear: chronic pain doesn't have to be a life sentence. By exploring mind-body approaches and understanding the role of neuroplasticity, many individuals may find relief where traditional methods have failed.
Whether you're personally struggling with chronic pain or know someone who is, this episode offers valuable insights into an often-overlooked approach to healing. Rob's journey from sufferer to practitioner provides a beacon of hope for those seeking alternatives to conventional pain management.
Rob Liedline, a member of the Mindful Coach Association, shares his transformative journey from chronic pain to healing, emphasizing the importance of a mindful and holistic approach to pain management. With a background in mindfulness coaching, Rob reveals how personal experiences with severe physical ailments shaped his coaching philosophy. He discusses the mind-body connection and how emotional stress often manifests as physical pain, a cycle he calls the 'pain fear cycle.' Listeners will learn about the groundbreaking practice of somatic tracking, which encourages individuals to observe their pain with curiosity rather than fear, fostering a sense of safety and self-acceptance. Rob's insights into neuroplastic pain and the efficacy of tools like the Curable app offer a fresh perspective for those struggling with chronic pain, demonstrating that healing often requires addressing underlying emotional issues rather than merely treating physical symptoms. Through his story, Rob inspires hope and empowerment for those suffering from chronic pain, urging them to explore new avenues for healing and personal growth.
The conversation between Brett Hill and Rob Liedline delves deep into the often overlooked aspects of chronic pain management, particularly the psychological components that are frequently dismissed in traditional medical practices. Rob recounts his own battles with pain, including the moment he realized that his numerous medical consultations failed to provide answers or relief. This stark realization led him to explore alternative healing methods, eventually discovering that many chronic conditions could be alleviated by addressing emotional trauma and stress through mindful practices. Brett and Rob discuss the significance of being present with one’s body and the role of mindfulness in recognizing and reframing negative thought patterns associated with pain. By embracing self-compassion and fostering a non-judgmental awareness of bodily sensations, individuals can begin to unravel the complex relationship between their mind and body, paving the way for recovery and improved quality of life.
Listeners are invited to reconsider their understanding of chronic pain and the conventional approaches to its treatment. Rob Liedline’s expertise as a mindful coach shines through as he provides practical advice and techniques aimed at fostering a deeper connection between the mind and body. He emphasizes the necessity of ruling out serious medical conditions while also encouraging individuals to explore the emotional undercurrents of their pain. The episode also highlights the power of community and shared experiences in the healing journey, as Rob recounts the impact of connecting with others who have faced similar challenges. As the discussion unfolds, it becomes clear that healing from chronic pain is not only possible but can also lead to profound personal transformation and a renewed appreciation for life. Rob's story serves as a beacon of hope, illustrating that with the right support and mindset, it is feasible to reclaim one's life from the grips of chronic pain.
Transcript
The Mindful Coach Podcast.
Brett Hill:So welcome to this edition of the Mindful Coach Podcast.
Brett Hill:I'm your host, Brett Hill, founder of the Mindful Coach association, and I have my own practice in mindfulness coaching and somatic work.
Brett Hill:And while I can't wait to introduce you to a guy I know who's doing really amazing work, Rob Liedline, he is a member of the Mindful Coach Association.
Brett Hill:And one of the things I like the most about the coaches that we talk to on this show, and Rob is perfect example of this, are the people who are doing really, I call it, I think it's courageous work because they're working with people who really need it, people who are really suffering.
Brett Hill:He's a specialist in conditions with like, fibromyalgia, fatigue, chronic fatigue syndrome, migraine headaches, chronic back shoulder pain, you know, chronic pain conditions that millions and millions of people have.
Brett Hill:But he approaches it not from the, you know, the traditional approaches of medicine, but from a mind, body, holistic integration place.
Brett Hill:And he's here to tell us all about that.
Brett Hill:So welcome to the show, Rob.
Brett Hill:Did I.
Brett Hill:Did I introduce you accurately there?
Rob Liedline:I think that sounds great.
Rob Liedline:And thanks for having me, Brett.
Rob Liedline:I'm, as you know, I'm a fan of the podcast, and it's really nice to be a guest as well.
Rob Liedline:So thanks for having me.
Brett Hill:Oh, of course.
Brett Hill:I mean, we want the world to hear about the important work that our coaches are doing and in particular, the kind of work that you're doing, because it matters.
Brett Hill:And there are so many people.
Brett Hill:I've had clients come to me and they're struggling with, you know, chronic pain, and I'm not a specialist, and I can't really help them, so I have to forward them on to people like you.
Brett Hill:And so how did you get involved with this as a specialization of all the things you could do in terms of, you know, coaching people?
Brett Hill:How did this come into focus for you?
Rob Liedline:Yeah, well, it really, it really starts from my own experience.
Rob Liedline:And, you know, I guess the old coaching adage is that we, we want to coach the people that we used to be.
Rob Liedline:And I've been, I've, I've been through a number of bouts of chronic pain, not really knowing exactly what was behind it, but, but the most recent, the more recent one came up for me when I, I had rotator cuff surgery for a pretty significant rotator cuff tear in my.
Rob Liedline:On my left shoulder.
Rob Liedline:And, you know, life seemed to be going along really nicely at, at that point.
Rob Liedline:And then I was, I was sidelined.
Rob Liedline:And years ago, I Had had the other shoulder operated on, so I knew it was going to put me on the sidelines for quite a while.
Rob Liedline:I knew that it was going to interfere with my ability to work, and I knew that the recovery was.
Rob Liedline:Was long and painful and.
Rob Liedline:And tedious.
Rob Liedline:And so it wasn't so much the injury.
Rob Liedline:I knew that I could have surgery.
Rob Liedline:I knew I could recover.
Rob Liedline:But it was a lot of the other stuff that was attached to what went with having the surgery and the recovery.
Rob Liedline:This started to bring up some anxiety in me.
Brett Hill:Oh, wow.
Rob Liedline:And, yeah, so I was.
Rob Liedline:I was becoming a little.
Rob Liedline:Well, yeah, I was becoming anxious about it.
Rob Liedline:Right.
Rob Liedline:Thinking about what are all the consequences going to be, and, you know, leaning a little into catastrophizing.
Rob Liedline:But I did have the surgery done.
Rob Liedline:It.
Rob Liedline:It went well.
Rob Liedline:The doctor did a great job.
Rob Liedline:And as I was rehabbing, I.
Rob Liedline:I noticed that my anxiety wasn't really going away, and I started to worry about things like, is my shoulder healing properly?
Rob Liedline:It feels.
Rob Liedline:Feels a little weird.
Rob Liedline:Should I be stronger?
Rob Liedline:Doctor said I was doing fine.
Rob Liedline:And I noticed then that, you know, my.
Rob Liedline:My other shoulder, my good shoulder began bothering me.
Brett Hill:Oh, so your other shoulder started to get involved with this.
Brett Hill:Whatever, you know, this discomfort, this.
Brett Hill:This injury somehow.
Brett Hill:How did that.
Brett Hill:I mean, that must have been unsettling.
Rob Liedline:It was unsettling for sure, to say the least.
Rob Liedline:And there wasn't much of a reason for me to incur an injury to that shoulder or to feel pain in that shoulder.
Rob Liedline:And after that, you know, that.
Rob Liedline:That kind of ramped up my level of anxiety a little bit as well.
Rob Liedline:And from there, I started to feel, you know, the pain just started to spread.
Rob Liedline:But basically I started to experience pain in my neck that started.
Rob Liedline:It felt like it was radiating down my shoulder.
Brett Hill:Oh, wow.
Rob Liedline:Some image.
Rob Liedline:Yeah, yeah.
Rob Liedline:Doctor took some imaging and said that I had stenosis in my neck.
Brett Hill:So what is that for the listeners?
Brett Hill:What is that?
Rob Liedline:Yeah, stenosis is just a narrowing of the.
Rob Liedline:Of the spinal cord, the canal within the vertebra.
Rob Liedline:So, you know, it's something.
Brett Hill:Is that a genetic thing or is that it?
Rob Liedline:Actually, it is incredibly common.
Rob Liedline:I didn't know it at the time, but, you know, people.
Rob Liedline:You know, I'm in my 50s now.
Rob Liedline:People in their 50s are gonna have that, and we can talk a little more about the implications of that.
Rob Liedline:But.
Rob Liedline:But for me, the implication was, holy cow, I'm.
Rob Liedline:You know, I'm breaking down here, and.
Brett Hill:It'S downhill from here, folks.
Rob Liedline:Yeah, yeah.
Rob Liedline:But.
Rob Liedline:But then, you know, that the pain continued to spread and you know, I kind of give you an abbreviated version, but I was.
Rob Liedline:I was getting lower back pain.
Rob Liedline:I started experiencing hip pain, pain that was sort of like plantar fasciitis in my feet, pain that resembled carpal tunnel syndrome.
Rob Liedline:Strange symptoms.
Rob Liedline:I literally had pain from, you know, from.
Rob Liedline:And weird sensations from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet, the soles of my feet.
Brett Hill:So how long.
Brett Hill:How long was this going on?
Rob Liedline:This.
Rob Liedline:That the whole episode, right, was probably about a year.
Rob Liedline:And it wasn't like everything was happening at once.
Rob Liedline:It was no.
Brett Hill:More like something was skewed this whole time and painfully so.
Rob Liedline:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rob Liedline:So it was kind of like whack a mole.
Rob Liedline:And I went to, yeah, quite a number of different doctors and specialists.
Rob Liedline:Nobody could really figure out, know, Give.
Rob Liedline:Give me an indication that anything was wrong.
Rob Liedline:I had MRIs, I had a number of steroid injections in different parts of my body.
Rob Liedline:I was in physical therapy.
Rob Liedline:I was doing acupuncture, chiropractic.
Brett Hill:I was everything you can get your hands on.
Rob Liedline:Yes, yes.
Rob Liedline:And.
Rob Liedline:And nothing gave me, you know, even more than, you know, once in a while I'd get a little bit of temporary relief.
Rob Liedline:But I had convinced myself that, you know, something was gravely wrong with me, but nobody, nobody could figure it out.
Rob Liedline:And, you know, so there was.
Rob Liedline:I was caught in this, what they call the pain fear cycle.
Rob Liedline:So I'm experiencing pain.
Rob Liedline:I don't like it.
Rob Liedline:That brings up some anxiety and some fear, which amplifies whatever symptoms I'm already experiencing.
Rob Liedline:Right.
Rob Liedline:Which.
Rob Liedline:Which amplifies the pain.
Rob Liedline:So it's just this vicious, vicious cycle that I was caught up in.
Rob Liedline:And I was expecting to be, you know, seriously disabled or whatever once somebody could finally figure out what the heck was going on with me.
Rob Liedline:And so what happened?
Brett Hill:I mean, somehow you had some kind of insight, maybe?
Brett Hill:I mean, what helped you?
Brett Hill:Did you.
Brett Hill:Did you fix this?
Brett Hill:I mean, fix like, you know, it's not like there was a turnkey, but it is.
Brett Hill:Tell me more.
Rob Liedline:I feel great now.
Rob Liedline:And really that the beginning of the big turnaround for me came when I contacted a friend who I hadn't seen in a while because, you know, I'd known her for close to 20 years, but she had moved out of the neighborhood a while back.
Rob Liedline:But she was always someone who had a number of different diagnoses that were kind of, you know, non specific.
Rob Liedline:Well, she was diagnosed with fibromyalgia, some other things.
Rob Liedline:But I knew that she had, you know, been dealing with a lot of pain.
Rob Liedline:I See in her life and different symptoms.
Rob Liedline:So I asked her to have coffee with me and because I was hoping that maybe she could give me just some tips on how to manage pain and you know, by, by, by the luck of, or the, you know, the universal lining correctly.
Rob Liedline:I caught her at a time when she had actually recovered herself from, you know, these decades of serious symptoms and, and having, you know, probably a.
Rob Liedline:What she would describe as a smaller and shrunken life because of those, those symptoms.
Rob Liedline:But she just was feeling, I just.
Brett Hill:Feel that my soma.
Brett Hill:When you say that.
Brett Hill:Smaller.
Rob Liedline:Yeah, yeah.
Rob Liedline:And she told me that she had recovered by, of all things, using an app.
Rob Liedline:And this app was something that I had actually seen advertised on Facebook but I had kind of, kind of ignored it.
Rob Liedline:Like, yeah, it's just another thing.
Rob Liedline:But it was.
Rob Liedline:The app is called, the app is called curable and it's really based on, you know, it's a self paced, I guess you call it a course or a resource for exactly this, this type of pain that it turns out that I had pain and symptoms which are sometimes referred to as neuroplastic pain.
Rob Liedline:Tms, Mind Body Syndrome.
Brett Hill:What is neuroplastic pain?
Rob Liedline:Neuroplastic pain is pain that is actually generated by the brain.
Rob Liedline:So.
Rob Liedline:And it's sort of learned pain.
Rob Liedline:So as you, maybe as you, as you experience pain, get used to having pain and the circumstances surrounding the pain, the brain develops neural pathways that just interpret signals.
Rob Liedline:Yes, yeah.
Rob Liedline:That wouldn't ordinarily cause pain, but, but the brain is interpreting it as, as pain because it's such a well worn pathway in the brain that, that so.
Rob Liedline:Right.
Rob Liedline:Neuroplasticity, referring to the changing nature of the brain.
Rob Liedline:The nature of the brain to change, create new neuronal connections, to learn and unlearn things.
Rob Liedline:So this was kind of where I was and she expl, you know, she checked in with me and said, and asked me, she said, I don't mean to proselytize about this, but you know, just to be sure, you've been to doctors, you haven't been diagnosed with any, you know, serious medical condition, etc.
Rob Liedline:Yeah, no.
Rob Liedline:And she said, well, this, you know, takes you through, through neuroplastic pain or mind body pain as it's sometimes referred to.
Rob Liedline:Psychosomatic is another word, but that has such negative connotations because it implies, you know, in, in our culture that you're imagining.
Rob Liedline:Right.
Rob Liedline:It's.
Rob Liedline:But she said that, that working with this program which involved, you know, a variety of, you know, of methods from Journaling to psycho education and learning about the nature of pain to different meditations and somatic tracking and etc that she had actually gotten better and wow off of, off of her meds and back out into, into her life.
Rob Liedline:So I, I subscribed to the app immediately.
Rob Liedline:Yes, that was my start because that, that was my introduction to the idea of mind body syndrome and symptoms that are not based in pathological problems.
Rob Liedline:You know, there may be some physique, there are definitely physiological reactions, but that the symptoms I was experiencing were really based in emotions, in stress and had a, you know, had their origin up in the mind and that there was, that I wasn't broken.
Rob Liedline:So.
Rob Liedline:And that also introduced me to a lot of the people who are doing such good work in this, in this field because the curable app was developed by a team of people with, with lots and lots of experience.
Rob Liedline:And so I went, I went well beyond working with the app.
Rob Liedline:It was, the app wasn't enough for me but I kind of cut and pasted my way to healing by reading books, listening to podcasts.
Rob Liedline:The app itself just trying a lot of different methodologies and seeing who's.
Rob Liedline:Who's doing what out there.
Rob Liedline:And I kind of together my own path to healing.
Brett Hill:Was it a process of Once you just once you, was there a point in time when you turned, you know, you started to explore this app and you started to that you, you realized there's really something to this.
Brett Hill:Like this is, this is helping.
Brett Hill:Was there, was that like incremental or was it just like oh yeah, this is really making a difference?
Brett Hill:Was there a moment like that?
Rob Liedline:I would say it was incremental.
Rob Liedline:My, you know, my, my recovery probably took close to a year, eight months to a year to feel like I was like I was before all of this started.
Rob Liedline:But there was definitely a light bulb moment when I, when I reflected back on.
Rob Liedline:I had mentioned that I had had a couple of bouts without, without knowing it.
Rob Liedline:But many years ago when I had experienced about 8, 9 years of chronic migraine headaches.
Rob Liedline:And those started at a time when I became a father.
Rob Liedline:Right.
Rob Liedline:We had our child, we moved, became a first time home buyer and I.
Brett Hill:Also.
Rob Liedline:A new job.
Rob Liedline:Yes.
Rob Liedline:And a new job of a few months.
Rob Liedline:And I said oh there's.
Rob Liedline:And that's when my migraines became chronic.
Brett Hill:Yeah.
Rob Liedline:And you know, I was seeing again it was one of those circumstances where I was seeing a neurologist.
Rob Liedline:I went to the headache clinic at Montefiore Medical center and was working with a doctor for many years and did.
Brett Hill:Anybody mention to you the notion of stress?
Rob Liedline:Not, not so much.
Rob Liedline:They would sometimes ask me, what's going on in your life?
Rob Liedline:And I said, well, you know, I've got, got the baby at home and I started a new job.
Rob Liedline:They're like, okay, yeah, yeah, it's, it's stress.
Brett Hill:But they were, call me tomorrow.
Brett Hill:Right.
Rob Liedline:Well, what they diagnosed it as was, you know, they called it primary headache.
Rob Liedline:Right.
Rob Liedline:Yes, Idiopathic pain.
Rob Liedline:But nothing, you know, none of the real treatments that I had.
Rob Liedline:I tried a million different drugs.
Rob Liedline:I had my brain, Mr.
Rob Liedline:As they say, they found nothing there.
Rob Liedline:And after about eight years, as our kid got older, more independent because I was a little more involved in the day to day childcare than my wife, just because my work schedule was more flexible.
Rob Liedline:As that started to ease up, the headaches started to go away.
Brett Hill:I see.
Rob Liedline:And, and I'm certainly not, not blaming my kid for my headache.
Brett Hill:No, of course not.
Brett Hill:It's just your context, it's just the.
Rob Liedline:Way that it works.
Rob Liedline:And you know, so looking back and saying, well, they came on without any kind of injury or disease.
Rob Liedline:They went away, you know, after trying throwing everything but the kitchen sink at them.
Rob Liedline:And it's like, okay, yeah, that was, that was definitely neuroplastic pain.
Rob Liedline:That was definitely mind body syndrome.
Brett Hill:So you said you used the app and you got some real progress out of that and then you went beyond it just, it's just sort of like putting it all together.
Brett Hill:And so at some point or another, you, I guess you feel like you made enough progress and were inspired enough to kind of say, I want to help other people now.
Rob Liedline:Yeah, well, there was, you know, along the way there was still this kernel of doubt in my mind that, you know, little voice saying, maybe there really is something going on with you.
Rob Liedline:And that is an important hurdle to make it over if you're going to recover from this kind of pain and these symptoms is really accepting that there's nothing wrong with you, that you're not in fact, broken.
Rob Liedline:In fact, that's probably the biggest hurdle that most people who have this syndrome have to overcome is just that, that bit of doubt.
Brett Hill:Sure.
Rob Liedline:Because the brain really holds on to it.
Brett Hill:Yeah, it's, you know, it's hard to get your head around the notion that this isn't being caused by something in me, you know.
Rob Liedline:Right, right.
Rob Liedline:But eventually, you know, I did start doing more physically and I learned to be a little more.
Rob Liedline:Can't ignore pain and symptoms, but I learned to be more indifferent to them knowing that I wasn't being harmed by them, they were unpleasant.
Rob Liedline:Right.
Rob Liedline:So I reframed how I looked at those symptoms and the more I engaged in life and activity and the world, the, the better I felt until, you know, I kind of.
Rob Liedline:It's kind of like the impacts that meditation can have on a person.
Rob Liedline:You know, a practice of many years and then suddenly you look back at the huge.
Rob Liedline:That you may recognize in yourself, but it didn't feel like anything was necessarily happening on a day to day basis.
Brett Hill:Incremental changes.
Rob Liedline:Incremental changes, exactly.
Rob Liedline:So that really had.
Rob Liedline:As you were saying, it did have a tremendous impact on my worldview because I went from checking out my life insurance policy and things like that, just wondering where is this all going to lead to?
Rob Liedline:Being told that, you know, even though I was never in, in danger.
Rob Liedline:Right.
Rob Liedline:For, for disability, death, whatever it might be, my brain didn't know that.
Rob Liedline:So I was reacting.
Rob Liedline:I was kind of living in a world where I thought that was a distinct possibility.
Rob Liedline:So it's almost like being given this, this reprieve and a newfound appreciation and gratitude for everything that I have.
Rob Liedline:And that, that feeling was so impactful on me that I said I've gotta, I've really gotta find a way to, to be able to help other people who are in a similar circumstance and maybe help them do it a little more smoothly.
Brett Hill:Yeah, exactly.
Brett Hill:Kind of like you were out there putting, putting it all together and now people can benefit from your, from all your years of study and practice.
Rob Liedline:Yeah.
Rob Liedline:And on my website I say it was, you know, I describe it as a real DIY job.
Rob Liedline:So it got me where I wanted to go.
Rob Liedline:But I think there's a, you know, a better path that I can provide for people who are.
Brett Hill:Well, I think that's one of the values of having an experienced, you know, expert at your side, particularly one who's walked the path and knows.
Brett Hill:Which brings me to this question that I hear from time to time.
Brett Hill:If you're.
Brett Hill:Because your, your work involves helping people be.
Brett Hill:I would may just ask, does your work involve, you know, helping people be more mindful about the state of their body?
Brett Hill:Do you work with people to do that?
Brett Hill:Like how to be more present with your experience?
Rob Liedline:In a way, it, it definitely does.
Rob Liedline:There's a large element of mindfulness in the approach that I take.
Rob Liedline:And of course each person is unique and will respond differently to different sort of methodologies of healing, but it really is about a lot of it is helping people trust their bodies and not be so alarmed with symptoms and to understand what Is what is just normal.
Rob Liedline:I mean, nobody is completely pain free.
Rob Liedline:And as we age, our bodies start to make sounds and that they didn't make when, when they were in their twenties, right?
Rob Liedline:Little cracks here and creaks there at the same time trying to cut the cord of hyper vigilance over, over bodies.
Rob Liedline:So there's, you know, you want to walk that fine line because you really don't want somebody being reactive to every little thing that they feel in their body.
Rob Liedline:You know, it's like, oh, my wrist is tight now, my ankle's tight.
Brett Hill:Yeah.
Brett Hill:And but along those same lines, it's like, what do you say to someone who's like, they're experiencing pain and you want to say, okay, so tune into your body.
Brett Hill:And they tune in their body and their body is going, ah.
Brett Hill:They, you know, it's like unfun to hang out there with that painful fish.
Brett Hill:So, so how is it that tuning into your body which is yelling at you basically is a path to being better?
Rob Liedline:Well, one of the, one of the techniques that that I teach in the practice is something called just somatic tracking, right.
Rob Liedline:And typically you want a person to engage in somatic tracking when their pain levels are, you know, maybe a five or a six at the most, not when they are in a huge flare up of, you know, experiencing a 9 or a 10.
Rob Liedline:But somatic tracking, and you may well know this, Brett, from your, from your experiences, is really just attending to the body, noticing where you're experiencing sensations.
Rob Liedline:But from a place of equanimity, you're an objective observer.
Rob Liedline:This is what I'm experiencing.
Rob Liedline:This is where it is, this is how it feels.
Rob Liedline:And while you're doing that, sending yourself messages of safety, it's like, okay, don't have to like it.
Rob Liedline:It's here.
Rob Liedline:This is what it feels like.
Rob Liedline:But I know I'm safe.
Rob Liedline:It's okay to be with this sensation that can take some of the power away from it.
Rob Liedline:And it also involves.
Rob Liedline:Yeah, yeah.
Brett Hill:Oh, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I get excited when you talk that way because, because it's, it's really.
Brett Hill:In that case, it's like taking sitting, putting yourself in the position of someone who's having a painful experience.
Brett Hill:Instead of I am in pain, it's more like I'm someone who's experiencing pain and where I'm in bigger, I'm in a bigger seat.
Brett Hill:You know, it's like my whole world isn't as painful, but that's happening and I want to acknowledge you.
Brett Hill:So just by Doing that, you make yourself bigger than that experience.
Rob Liedline:Yeah.
Rob Liedline:And that's an important distinction, too, which you just mentioned.
Rob Liedline:So it's not my sore back.
Rob Liedline:It's, you know, I'm experiencing pain, you know, this sensation in my back.
Rob Liedline:It's not my fibromyalgia.
Brett Hill:It's.
Rob Liedline:Well, I would actually discourage somebody from even using fibromyalgia if that's what they've been told, because.
Rob Liedline:Fibromyalgia.
Rob Liedline:Yeah, yeah, because it's a, you know, it's.
Rob Liedline:Fibromyalgia, honestly, tends to be a.
Rob Liedline:You know, it's a diagnosis of exclusion.
Rob Liedline:We know you're in a lot of pain.
Rob Liedline:We can't figure out what's wrong with you.
Rob Liedline:So it must be fibromyalgia.
Rob Liedline:And it's.
Rob Liedline:And it's real, honest to goodness pain that.
Brett Hill:Yeah.
Rob Liedline:You know, that people are experiencing, but having that name attached to it, having a diagnosis from a medical professional of that and being told that there's no cure for it, that's own.
Rob Liedline:That's a recipe for amplification.
Rob Liedline:Well, when you say that over identification.
Brett Hill:Yeah.
Brett Hill:I feel the spell of it in a way, it's almost like, you know, and to.
Brett Hill:So to the people out there who are listening, who are going through these struggles, he's like years of trying to figure this out.
Brett Hill:What would you say?
Brett Hill:How can they begin to explore the kinds of things that you're talking about?
Rob Liedline:Yeah.
Rob Liedline:First of all, I want to be clear that I'm not saying that people who have been diagnosed with fibromyalgia or anything like this, or just sciatica, whatever it might be, migraines, I want to be clear that their pain is real.
Rob Liedline:They're not making it up.
Rob Liedline:Exactly.
Rob Liedline:You know, the struggle that they're going through is 100% real.
Rob Liedline:And I think that, you know, the thing for them to do is to, of course, always first make sure that you can rule out any kind of structural damage, disease, those sorts of things with a, With a.
Rob Liedline:A medical professional.
Rob Liedline:So make sure that you are indeed in.
Rob Liedline:In the clear for those things.
Rob Liedline:And then see if you can open up to the idea of these symptoms being due to emotions, to stress, and your brain's way of telling you that.
Rob Liedline:That your, Your internal world may need a little, Little tidying up.
Brett Hill:Let's say that, you know, you don't know.
Brett Hill:You, you.
Brett Hill:You're open to the idea, but you don't necessarily want to buy it all upfront.
Brett Hill:So how is it worth like, pursuing a practice to see if it helps, like beginning to do some kind of work with this app or calling you and beginning to go through some practices just to see it.
Brett Hill:Does that actually make a difference?
Brett Hill:And then kind of like you were saying, it was an incremental process for you as well.
Rob Liedline:Yeah, yeah.
Rob Liedline:Well, there are a lot of stories out there, you know, a lot of different stories about the healing path, the recovery path from mind body syndrome.
Rob Liedline:And some people have been, you know, it's a minority of people, but some people have been known to read a book.
Rob Liedline:There was a doctor who worked at NYU's Rusk center for Rehabilitation, Dr.
Rob Liedline:John Sarno.
Rob Liedline: He passed away in: Rob Liedline:But he was one of the pioneers in this field of mind body medicine and treatment.
Rob Liedline:And he wrote a few books.
Rob Liedline:One of the most famous is called Healing Back Pain.
Rob Liedline:And there are stories that people have read the book, understood, maybe gotten the relief that this isn't due to something that is really life threatening and, you know, we're able to move on with their lives.
Rob Liedline:That's not, that's not typical.
Rob Liedline:But, but it has happened.
Rob Liedline:Right.
Rob Liedline:You kind of get into the mindset that, oh, I really am okay.
Rob Liedline:And then there are, you know, then, then sometimes it can take a little longer to buy into the premise.
Rob Liedline:And I don't mean intellectually buy into it.
Rob Liedline:Yeah, yeah, but to really embody that premise that this is generated by the mind and by emotions and particularly fear.
Brett Hill:You know, that's not going to happen until I think you have an experience of getting better, you know.
Rob Liedline:Right.
Brett Hill:I say it's not going to happen.
Brett Hill:I say something.
Brett Hill:I mean, for me, it's like the way I take things on is by trying them out.
Brett Hill:And does this work?
Brett Hill:Well, yes.
Brett Hill:Do I know why it works?
Brett Hill:No, but I know that it works.
Brett Hill:And so I'm going to, you know, get more involved.
Brett Hill:That's how I got involved in the whole stuff that I did.
Brett Hill:Such a powerful experience of direct benefit of somatic work.
Rob Liedline:So really that's, that's the first step is just kind of being a little more educated.
Rob Liedline:And in my coaching program that, that's where we start, is in that, that educational phase of here's an alternative possibility for you for why all of this is happening.
Rob Liedline:And here's what supports that possibility.
Rob Liedline:Right.
Rob Liedline:The science and the research behind it.
Rob Liedline:There is a growing body of research that supports that this is a real thing.
Rob Liedline:This isn't smoke and mirrors, this isn't, you know, snake oil, anything like that.
Rob Liedline:And from that point, you know, it really depends on the individual.
Rob Liedline:You know, once they cross that hurdle, then there can be many different approaches to it.
Rob Liedline:There's a lot of writing and journaling that can be involved.
Rob Liedline:That can be really helpful.
Rob Liedline:The actual practices of mindfulness and meditation and somatic tracking, getting back gradually into life's activities.
Rob Liedline:Right.
Rob Liedline:Using your body a little more at a pace that's right for you.
Rob Liedline:Because I typically take, take a dual track approach to, to working with people.
Rob Liedline:Because there's whatever initially brought, brought the pain on to begin with.
Rob Liedline:Right.
Rob Liedline:Or the symptoms which might be, you know, have to do with life circumstances.
Rob Liedline:It could have been, you know, stressful time at home.
Brett Hill:Sure.
Rob Liedline:Could, could be a divorce.
Rob Liedline:It could be, you know, could even be good things.
Rob Liedline:Right.
Rob Liedline:That.
Rob Liedline:The birth of a child or buying, buying a house.
Brett Hill:Yeah, yeah.
Brett Hill:Get learning to, to understand, like what's your state of your normal background noise in the nervous system?
Rob Liedline:Yes, yes.
Brett Hill:So many times when I work with clients and even in myself, you know, I'll, I'll just start to tune into like, what is the state of my nervous system.
Brett Hill:I find, oh my gosh, it's really kind of on fire.
Brett Hill:But you get so you, you get so used to that as just the normal state of things that it, just.
Brett Hill:Because the brain, the way the brain works, it just pushes that into the background, goes, oh, nothing special here.
Brett Hill:This is normal.
Brett Hill:But the truth of it is our nervous systems, it's not normal.
Brett Hill:We just live in a hyperactive world.
Brett Hill:And organically that is an impact.
Brett Hill:And I think these are some of the impacts that we're talking about here.
Rob Liedline:Yeah.
Rob Liedline:So that's the one track, right.
Rob Liedline:Is taking a look at what may have been going on in your life when these symptoms occurred, what's at the root of what's happening.
Rob Liedline:And then there's also the other part is dealing with that pain fear cycle that I discussed.
Rob Liedline:Because there's, there's the pain and then there's the, the fear of the pain that amplifies the pain.
Rob Liedline:And you know, that that's another thing that's happening concurrently.
Rob Liedline:You may acknowledge, okay, yeah, I was going through all this stress and I was grieving or whatever it might be, but I still, I know that.
Rob Liedline:But why can I still not get out of this?
Brett Hill:So what would you say to people as a good, like takeaway, real time, implementable intervention for when you notice that's going on?
Brett Hill:What, what do you tell people to do?
Rob Liedline:Like, right then when they notice that maybe that the pain is flaring up or they're starting.
Brett Hill:Yeah, the pain is flaring up and the Fear is coming and it's like, what, what would you tell someone to do?
Brett Hill:Like, oh my God, it's.
Brett Hill:The pain is like, not again.
Brett Hill:How am I going to deal, like, all of that?
Brett Hill:What would you do?
Rob Liedline:Yes.
Rob Liedline:Yeah, the catastrophizing.
Rob Liedline:Well, one of the things you can do is redirect your thoughts to something else.
Rob Liedline:Engage in something that is, I mean, you don't want to ignore what's going on with you.
Rob Liedline:But you know, if you've accepted that this is, that this is really what's happening to you, that you're not broken or anything like that, one thing that can be helpful is reminding yourself of that.
Rob Liedline:Right?
Rob Liedline:It's like, okay, the pain is here.
Rob Liedline:Maybe you can jump into a little bit of somatic tracking.
Rob Liedline:If the pain isn't too, isn't too severe.
Rob Liedline:You can also, you know, affirmations can sometimes be helpful.
Rob Liedline:Just self talk and, and reminders to yourself that, yeah, this is okay.
Rob Liedline:This is really hard right now.
Rob Liedline:Self, self compassion practices can be helpful too.
Rob Liedline:Like Kristen Neff has a great 5 minute self compassion practice where you just acknowledge what's going on.
Rob Liedline:You acknowledge that it's hard.
Rob Liedline:You're not alone in suffering.
Rob Liedline:Even though your, your own type of suffering may be unique to you, but you're not alone in this world and just give yourself some words of kindness and that can help take it down enough to, for a person to be able to move on with their day.
Brett Hill:Right.
Brett Hill:And the important point there is to like, interrupt that cycle, you know, so that it doesn't, so that you don't just keep repeating the loop.
Brett Hill:Because otherwise, you know, you're lost.
Rob Liedline:Right.
Rob Liedline:When you keep repeating the loop.
Rob Liedline:We talked about neuroplasticity a little earlier on, right?
Rob Liedline:The more you repeat the loop, the stronger those neuronal connections become.
Rob Liedline:So what we want to do is take advantage of the brain's neuroplasticity to gradually rewire it to a different way of thinking, a different default system.
Rob Liedline:And it takes practice.
Rob Liedline:So I don't want people to think that, yeah, all I got to do is do a little self compassion and I'm good to go with.
Rob Liedline:But you know, it's, it's reps.
Rob Liedline:Right.
Rob Liedline:Small doses administered frequently are what the brain responds to and what this condition responds to.
Brett Hill:Well, it's so great that you're doing this work and I'm just really happy that you're engaged in helping people who are suffering in this way that you found a way to, you know, bring yourself into, you know, a more whole place as well.
Brett Hill:So it's a really beautiful story and the work that you're doing is amazing.
Brett Hill:So how can people find you, Rob?
Rob Liedline:People, the easiest way to find me is at my website and I guess you'll put the link in the, in the show notes, but it is Rob Liebline.com the link will be in the.
Brett Hill:Show notes and you can also look him up his profile on mindfulcoach association.com you can just search the word Rob and you'll come up with this profile.
Rob Liedline:And yeah, and you know, my.
Rob Liedline:Through my website, it's really easy to schedule a free consultation with me.
Rob Liedline:I have a freebie that I can offer people on, you know, explaining a little more about neuroplastic pain or mind body pain.
Rob Liedline:If people want to take a little deeper, dive into that.
Rob Liedline:And, you know, I would love to have a chat with anybody who thinks that they might benefit from what I have to offer.
Rob Liedline:And if you can't benefit from what I have to offer, I will definitely let you know.
Rob Liedline:Right.
Rob Liedline:I just want to help people.
Brett Hill:Yeah, well, that's, yes, big yes to that.
Brett Hill:We want to help people.
Brett Hill:And that's.
Brett Hill:In fact, you know, what I love about the Mindful Coach association is like a collection of, of really great coaches like yourself and people who are inspired by the calling to be helpful to other people who are suffering and who need work and need help.
Brett Hill:And Lord knows there's a lot of that going around these days.
Brett Hill:So thank you, Rob, for being here.
Brett Hill:It's been great talking to you.
Brett Hill:Well, if you were to like, leave our listeners with a wish or what might that be?
Rob Liedline:Well, I think the thought might be that, you know, chronic pain is one of the biggest reasons for disability in the world, globally.
Rob Liedline:And it's a blind spot in the current medical community and the state that they're in.
Rob Liedline:So don't give up hope.
Rob Liedline:If nobody's been able to tell you what's going on or if you're uncertain or unclear on what you've been told, by all means seek out a different way of looking at what's, what's going on with you.
Rob Liedline:Because if I got better, I'm, I'm sure a lot of other people can get better.
Rob Liedline:And we just need people to know a little more about this as a possibility for them rather than having them kind of hide in their own suffering and miss out on so much of what they want to be participating in with their lives.
Brett Hill:Beautiful.
Brett Hill:Thank you so much.
Brett Hill:Pleasure talking to you.
Brett Hill:And that's a wrap for this edition of the Mindful Coach Podcast, and we will be talking to you soon.
Brett Hill:Thank you so much.
Rob Liedline:Thank you, Brent.
Brett Hill:The Mindful Coach Podcast is a service of the Mindful Coach Association.
