How One Woman is Changing the Public Sector with Mindfulness

:: 00:03

The The Mindful Coach Association podcast. So welcome to this edition of the The Mindful Coach Association podcast. I'm your host, Paula Vital, and I have with me today Pamela Vital. And I'm telling you, she's got a story to tell. She has come from a world where you don't really think of mindfulness, kind of coexisting in great depth with the world of legal expertise, being an attorney, and then the, the story that she has about how she has brought mindful awareness into that and then all the other spaces that she's touching. We have some really cool stuff to talk about, so stay tuned for that as we get into the notion of an intrapreneur a little bit later in the show. So welcome to this show, Pamela. I'm really happy to have you.

:: 00:51

Thanks so much, Brett. So great to be here.

:: 00:55

So you started your journey. Well, I actually don't know exactly where you started your journey, but somehow you wound up in the legal profession and you got involved with mindfulness and been engaged with bringing that into that profession. Can you tell me a little bit about, you know, where this whole story started? And I know you've got quite a tale to tell.

:: 01:17

Sure. So, yeah, I mean, I was very much an overachiever in my life. So we moved from Argentina to Canada when I was nine. And the expectation from that move was that we would make our lives better, that we work very hard and achieve a lot. And in so many ways, that was such a gift because I did well in school and I went to, I did an undergrad in political science and philosophy, and then I went on to do two law degrees. I worked at a law firm in Spain. I went back to Argentina for a while. I eventually got a job on Bay street in Toronto, which is kind of like Wall street in New York. So, like a big law job. But what was interesting was that while I was achieving a lot in the world, I was going here and there and doing a lot of things. As soon as I got to one of those things, as soon as I achieved something, very quickly it lost its appeal. So that it was like, okay, well, that's okay, but what next?

:: 02:26

And what's the next shiny thing?

:: 02:29

Exactly. And so there was this moment where, know, I had gone here, I had gone there, I had done all these things, and then I finally worked hard to become, you know, a summer student, then an articulating student, and then an associate at the firm. And I had this big office. And it's kind of ironic because it was this big golden tower actually has.

:: 02:51

Gold, literally a golden tower.

:: 02:57

And I looked out the window, and I was like, okay, well, what next? You know, what else can I do? So then I thought, okay, well, maybe, you know, if I look really great, you know, if I really diet and exercise. I was already a fitness instructor, so I became kind of obsessed with that. So I lost weight, I looked good. The dream job, I still wasn't feeling it. So then I thought, well, maybe if I'm in the perfect relationship, you know, so I started to date around. I need to find the partner and then. So date it around. Finally found a boyfriend, had a boyfriend, lost weight, had the job. Still wasn't feeling great. So I really ran out of options. I thought, okay, well, I don't really know what to do next. And that's when I started to get depressed, which was my first experience with depression, that I lost interest in the job and my life. I didn't have a lot of energy. I just. I like this quote by Jim Carrey, and he says, to be depressed is the need for deep rest from the person that you're trying so hard to be.

:: 04:07

And so depressed. Depressed. Right.

:: 04:10

Yeah. So that was my experience. It's like I was putting so much energy into having this successful Persona, into looking and being a particular way, but inside I was exhausted. And luckily, my sister meditated, which I thought was super weird, because why is she sitting there doing nothing when there's so much to do if you're going to wake up early?

:: 04:31

Oh, right. Like, you need to get out there and get. And get busy. What's up with this? Just sitting around doing nothing.

:: 04:38

Right. And so she suggested a book by John Kabat Zinn called wherever you go, there you are.

:: 04:45

There you are.

:: 04:46

And that was the beginning. I realized, oh, you know, that's what's been going on. I've been going here and there and doing many things, but at the end of the day, if I'm not understanding who I am, what's important to me, if I don't even have, like, a real connection to myself, there's no place or person or job or diet that's going to bring me that. That happiness. So I really.

:: 05:12

So it took all of that to get you to kind of take a look inwardly. And so what happened when you did that?

:: 05:20

Yeah. So I remember being in the first course that I took was the mindfulness based stress reduction course in the John Kebzit model by another facilitator here in Toronto, Heidi Walk. And I remember a few days in thinking, I'm going to teach this one day because I was so interested. The reason I went to law school is because I was interested in social justice. Justice making the world better. I had been interested in politics. I was in Argentina, where nothing worked. And then here in Canada, things worked. Why is that? But when I found mindfulness, I realized none of those external pieces are going to be sustainable if on the inside we're still grappling with aversion, not wanting things to be a particular way, reactivity. So I just started to realize that the, for me at least, the real work was needed within, and then that the work that we do in the world can be an expression of that. So that's when I became really interested in not just practicing for myself, but then taking it back into the community in whatever way that might look like.

:: 06:33

Amazing. Amazing. And so what did that look like?

:: 06:36

Yeah. So at first it was two very separate pieces. I remember going to the law firm, so I was living that lifestyle. But then I would do. I did a ten day meditation retreat. So it was kind of like very opposite. And then I started doing my yoga teacher training while I was at the firm. And it was just two different worlds and I never thought of the two coming together. And then a little while later, I made a transition from private practice in law to public service. So in their Ontario government, and one of my leaders in the government said, oh, I hear you're doing this yoga and mindfulness thing. Would you want to bring it in and do a little lunch and learn on? And I was like, sure, I'm happy. And that began this whole process of starting to bring into my workplace my love and passion for mindfulness. And because I was in it, and I actually still am. So I do both things. I coach mindfulness. I'm a yoga therapist, but I also still work in intergovernmental policy and government. So because I have both, I'm very able to relate to people that are struggling with. How do you bring in these principles into your super busy day when you.

:: 08:02

Have that's so important to have that touchstone where you can relate to coming because you lived here, right? You were like doing it, and finally you connected to, you know, something more substantial than yourself and you're saying, hey, check this out. And so being, you know, having that in your actual, I would call it somatic experience, you know, gives you the. Makes you a real. Enables you to really teach from an authentic place. So I really appreciate that. It's not just an idea with you, it's an experience.

:: 08:36

Yeah, yeah. And it was interesting to see how it began to grow. Because the other side effect of this practice, it doesn't make you only happier. It actually makes you more productive at your work. Because when you see clearly, you can decide what the priorities are, you can communicate effectively. You know, you can drive outcomes if that's what you're looking for. So when people started to see that, then they became really interested. So I started to go around to different ministries and teach them this. And now I'm taking what I've done in my organization and taking it out to other law firms, other organizations. And I also work one on one with professionals and lawyers who are interested in making this transition not so much an external transition, although that can happen sometimes. Sometimes you do want to change your course, like I did change from private to public. But sometimes the shifts can be really subtle but very significant. Like maybe an example, right? Like, it's like if you have a deadline and all day you're tense because you know that the deadline is coming and you're trying to rush through your meetings and rush through your interactions with people because you're stressed about this deadline. That's going to be one experience versus if you take a moment to breathe, you know, create space in your system to know that, yes, the deadline is there, and there's all these other things going on today. So can we trust, do the best we can, but have a little bit more ease and flow in our day so it becomes more enjoyable.

:: 10:27

Right. And not only for you, but for the flow of people that you encounter throughout your day. Because when you're a little bit slower in terms of or less stressed about the pace, you're able to actually, in my experience, connect better with the people that you interact with. They experience you more authentically and being more clear and being more effective. And so you're up leveling not only your personal experience, but the experience of people around you. And because you're making better decisions, like you mentioned, you're also helping the business. So it's a huge win for everybody. That's amazing. So it started to grow at the grassroots level. And then what happened? I mean, did that, like, take off from there?

:: 11:17

Well, there was a big turning point, which was COVID, I think until COVID, it was kind of this fringe thing. There were some people that were interested in it, but there was a lot of resistance to it, right. There was a lot of, like, this isn't real work. Why are we spending time, you know, with this stillness thing or whatever it is that we're doing the stretching, like it's not, it's not substantial. And then during COVID I received a call from one of the senior leaders in public service where I work. And he before he had never been interested. I've been doing it for years already. But then he said, what is this mindfulness thing you're doing? You know, what is this?

:: 12:05

What the heck is that?

:: 12:08

Because I think a lot of people started to feel the impact within themselves of the mind not being as sharp and as healthy as it could be. Right? Like the heaviness, the suffering, the loneliness. The pace had increased for a lot of us at work, even though we were at home. And so more people started to feel that mental health is not like a nice thing to add on to your already wonderful day, but it's foundational. And I would say that since then, it's become foundational. So within my organization now, we have a formalized program. I have a number of facilitators that I work with. We offer sessions multiple times daily. We also have a mindfulness for leaders certificate program. So that's core work that the leaders in the organization put into their performance plans. And it's a year program that we run. And I've found the same for other organizations. So, for example, in law, I did a program with The Mindful Coach Association, and it was okay, it was well received. A few people came out, but then I did one just last year, and the interest is really exploding. Maybe it's also because the pace of change is so fast and the uncertainty that we're facing that people need tools to be able to respond quickly enough to stay resilient, to stay strong. And so now we're running, actually with The The Mindful Coach Association Association, a number of sessions. And so there's a lot of interest now in law and other organizations and public service that this is like the real deal. It's going to be the evolution of the human, I think. Right? Like, this is the way we're going to be able to deal with the level of.

:: 14:00

Well, we hope so. I mean, you know, between us pros in the field, we hope so, right? I mean, that's the reason for doing it. And, you know, what you and I know is that these skills, while they work really excellently for the people in law, they also work for people in healthcare or in, you know, environmental cleanup or in any capacity, whatever you're doing. And coaching, because that's my specialty, is focusing on helping coaches learn to be more mindful and present in their work, and therapists and counselors so that they can do better work. And bottom line, because like you say, it is sort of a humanity. V two. Sometimes I think of it, you know, when we really step into the awareness that is afforded by these practices and vast, huge changes it makes in every aspect of your life.

:: 14:53

That's so true. And that reminds me in terms of the different jobs. So in the Ontario public service, we run all kinds of services, right? So we have people from jails who call in to our program, and they've said that their ability to deal with the challenges of working in a jail has increased during the pandemic. Also, I worked with emergency health services, so being in an ambulance and having to deal with all that, oh my gosh, so stressful, helpful. And also it helps you enjoy your job. Even if there are so many parts of the job that are difficult and challenging and full of obstacles, how can you start to tune into what is within your sphere of control? How can you bring a little bit of positivity and clarity as opposed to expecting the job to bring you satisfaction. Right. So you kind of move it around.

:: 15:51

No, that's super important. So I mean, what would you say to people who are feeling really over stressed at work? Like, what are some of the tips that you might have for people who are feeling that?

:: 16:02

Yeah. So in terms of that, just another little caveat around the practices. But I'll get into the practices, is that a lot of people feel like they don't have time for mindfulness because their jobs are already so busy and they hear about this and it's just another to do another should on their list, and they don't have the capacity to build it into their day. So what I often start with is a practice that can actually be coupled with another activity. So the overwhelm tends to come from so much sensory input, plus your own inner reactivity. And then you just don't know where to go and you're just. There's heaviness and the whole thing is just really unpleasant. Right. So what I suggest is to start to untangle the overwhelm into its component parts. So there's going to be six. There's going to be what you see out, what you see in the world, what you hear in your environment, and what you feel physically in your body, like your clothes on your skin or your legs on the earth. And then those three are also internal. Right. So if you were to close your eyes, you would see images or maybe a blank screen in your forehead. That's where some people get images or just blank. You would have mental talk, which is inner here, and you would have sensations associated with emotion, which is inner feel. So to start to untangle these, to begin to notice what you see, what you hear, what do you feel? Starts to bring some clarity into the situation. And often the overwhelm feeling is a combination of sensations that are unpleasant. Tightness in the belly, closing in at the heart, stress in the neck and shoulders, plus the thinking, oh, I don't have enough time. There's too much to do. I don't like this job anyway. I should be doing something else.

:: 18:09

So people are gonna judge me if I don't get this done.

:: 18:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna get fired. I don't. You know, what's gonna happen to my family, so. And as you do, Brett, I often suggest going to the body. Going to the body first, because for every body sensation, you have, like, a thousand thoughts. So then calming the body. True. Yeah, yeah. Because we're trying to get rid of that unpleasantness in the body, so we're trying to think our way out of it, but it doesn't work. We've tried.

:: 18:44

Yeah, it's so true. It's like, that's why I'm such a believer in somatic work. Hold on just a moment. So I'll edit that out. These guys are relentless. All right, so that's so true that, you know, going to the body helps to connect you to kind of here in the moment experience really directly. Eckertoli said, the body is always in the moment, and I just love that as a practice, because I can, whenever I find that, I'm in my head thinking about 50,000 ways I can talk about mindfulness better, and I go, oh, you know, oh, Brett, thinking about mindfulness is not being mindful. Connect back to my in the moment experience, and it has helped me so much, and so I'm really happy that you're oriented in that way. There was, okay, so you're. And I really like the idea of helping people kind of just notice the various aspects of their experience, because that really elevates people's awareness of what's happening inside. That just makes it so much easier, I think, for people. Oh. I wanted to give one example of a way that mindfulness could help, because what you said, what I felt was really important about how people feel. Like, this isn't busy enough, this isn't active enough, you know? And in some ways, I say mindfulness actually creates time. Yeah. An example is that I got when I was doing some work for the Institute for Organizational Science and Mindfulness. And he said, the founder of Foster said, gave an example of a guy who's in a meeting and he's angry and he's irritated and he's the, he's the manager, right? And he comes in, he's yelling at his team and the team all walks away and they're all loaded up with all this resentment and fear and anxiety. And so they go out and they do stuff that isn't on point. They make poor, some poor decisions, and that creates so much more work that it becomes, it subtracts from efficiency, so subtracts from productivity. Now, had that same manager known to take a breath and just go, oh, man, I'm really stressed. I don't want to pass that around. Just want to notice, take a breath and say, yeah, I'm stressed, but, you know, I'm not going to make that your problem, and then take a breath and everybody leaves and does a better job. You actually create efficiencies by having that capacity because you're, because you are operating in a better place and your team is going to as well. So I thought it was a good example of how kind of spreads the love a little bit, you know what I mean?

:: 21:47

Yeah. Another one that I like to think of, because it happens to all of us, is if you think about email volume, right? So you're getting all these emails and if you don't pause, you just start responding and you might be responding to stuff that's not the most important thing. And you could literally spend your whole day just responding to. You really can particularly pause. Is this the right time to answer? Maybe there's one that actually needs to be answered right away, but maybe the others can wait. And maybe you find that the morning is a time where you do really good work. So you want to, you know, carve out a half hour to do your planning or strategizing and then do emails in the afternoon. Right. So starting to think of how you can make your day, your schedule, work for you. And that requires some, some mindfulness, some training. We need to train these skills. They don't just come. I mean, they're always available to us, but they're more accessible the more we train to access them.

:: 22:52

Yeah.

:: 22:54

Sensory clarity, the concentration, the equanimity, the ability to be with pleasant and unpleasant, because that's all part of life. So those are the.

:: 23:04

Exactly. So you found that over time, people relaxed a little bit about this notion that mindfulness doesn't, it's not active enough because we were talking about this resistance you know, people had. And then COVID comes along and even the manager, the guy who was like, what the. Who had been not reaching out or not receptive, suddenly he's going, I'm assuming it was he going, going, what is this mindfulness stuff about? And so where's that program now? How's that doing now?

:: 23:39

Yeah, so it's become very mainstream. So it has the support of the secretary of cabinet, who's the highest civil servant now. And I think a number of governments are doing it. And then we're even thinking about how we roll it out to sectors like education and healthcare. And I talked about correction. So. So it's really growing. I think it has full support to the point where it's become part of the leadership competencies. So in order to be a good leader, you now have to have these intentional skills of knowing what.

:: 24:18

I just love to hear the institution institutionalization in a way of the. So this gets embedded into the framework of the mechanism of doing the work to grow people. I just love that so much. That's real progress.

:: 24:34

Yeah. So it's not just what you do, it's how you do it and the how affects the what. And it makes the what better.

:: 24:42

I'm reminded a little bit of the work going on in the UK regarding the legislature in mindfulness, and there's some amazing stuff going on there about politics and mindfulness. So I'm really happy to hear this work happening. So we talked a little bit earlier about this notion of an intrapreneur. Can you tell us about that and how that has lit up for you and what your work is around that?

:: 25:07

Yeah. So there was period of time in my journey where I felt quite dissatisfied by my work in law and policy. Cause I had kind of seen the light and I had this idea that the true transformation was going to happen through mindfulness. So I wanted to teach that full time. So then I saw my policy and legal work as almost like, less important. It's kind of like, it's okay, but it's not like where the real thing is. And I realized looking back that that was a misperception, because actually the mindfulness can seep into any activity that you're doing, and it's important by being the activity that you're doing in that moment. So that whether you're coaching or whether I'm coaching, or whether I'm doing a policy paper, or whether I'm giving advice at a meeting or whether I'm dealing with a difficult staff issue, that they're all equally important. They all have value because we bring the value. So it took me a while to learn that, and I think maybe there are people who are in the position I was in where they feel like, oh, my job's okay, but it's not really that important. Right? Or it's not exactly what I want to be doing. I want to be, whether it is a mindfulness coach or yoga teacher or an artist or a musician, you know, maybe something else. And what was wonderful in the opportunities that I had at work was that while at first it was about bringing in formal programs, like my lunch programs, and then it became, you know, the bigger mindfulness sessions and now the leadership program, but the. I think the deeper transition was bringing those skills and values into every single part of my job, so that now there's less distinction between if I'm doing policy work or whether I'm coaching someone. So that's kind of what I think that this idea of the intrapreneur is. How can you take the parts of yourself that you love, your passion, whether it is for music or for mindfulness or for art or for nature, and how can you incorporate facets of that into the work that you're already doing? You know, maybe you bring some of your paintings to your workplace, or maybe if you're. I have actually, a client of mine was a baker, and she always, like, wanted to do it full time, but then she was working in an organization, so she started to just bake stuff and bring it into work, and people loved that, and it became this thing where they would have, like, these bake offs, and so can you. It's the whole idea. It's a little cliche now, but the idea of bringing your whole self to work. But I think it's really, really important that you don't, like, think of yourself. Like, now I have to put my policy hat on or my, you know, truck driver hat or whatever hat, and I'm going to, like, leave all the parts of myself that I love somewhere else, and then I'm going to take time to do a little bit of that, or I need to, like, build that into. Into this big, huge thing. Maybe that'll happen, or maybe you'll start to bring some of that into what you're already doing and light people up that way, like, give them the magic of your being, and then, who knows? Maybe it'll all take off. But to not shy away from what is it that I love to do, and how can I incorporate some of that into the work that I'm already doing it could be as simple as talking to someone about it. Right? Like, instead of, hi, how are you doing? Fine. It's like, oh, fine. And I acted at this play on the weekend, you know, and bringing it into your day.

:: 28:58

Right. That's so powerful. And it's such an important lesson and practice, because I think that's the extension. It's like, first you get the skills, and the next thing is, this is what I would call integration work. It's like helping to integrate this deeper into your life so that you're living a whole life as opposed to a segmented. Segmented days. Segmented parts of your days. Really, really powerful. So great. And so you mentioned clients. Like, do you take clients personally? Do you see people individually?

:: 29:29

Yeah. Yeah. So just. I'll get into that. But one more thing I want to say about that is there's also, like, a process involved in being an entrepreneur, an intrapreneur, which is to get people to support you. So who are your allies? Right. So when I started the mindfulness program, it was not very popular because people thought it was weird, but there were a few people, a few people in leadership roles who thought it was valuable. So getting those people to back you can help you to start formalizing whatever it is that you're doing into something bigger so that you can.

:: 30:06

That's really important advice organizationally, you know, to get some internal support, sponsorship for your program. I've talked to a few people who have, and there's been a lot of big programs like Ernst and Young and in other places that got started, even at Google, which, you know, doing search inside yourself as an individual business, that all those things started as grassroots sort of offerings. Like, just like you were saying, oh, let's just do a lunch and learn. And suddenly there's a thousand people in the organization and interested in the process. And so to those listening out there who are parts of organizations, don't underestimate the value of starting small and just having a place for people to connect. What other kinds of things would you say are useful to those people who might be interested in starting some kind of a grass rich thing in their organization? Like, what did you find helpful to get the word out of those bit?

:: 31:10

Yeah. So I think having a space and time that's dedicated to what you want to bring, it can be virtual now. It's easier. I started with, like, a basement. It's like a basement spot. And sometimes it would be just me and sometimes it would be two people, but I just kept going because it's something that I wanted to do for myself. So I'll give you another example. I'm starting a new one now on Mondays. It's called peace begins here because I was so heartbroken by the level of conflict in the war. I'm also jewish and my family's from Palestine, so I'm a palestinian jew, so I have like the war in my heart. So. I'm kidding.

:: 31:52

I mean, you're really in the middle of it there. Absolutely, yeah.

:: 31:57

And so I just decided I want to do this inspired by Tichnan ha of bringing Israelis and Palestinians together, that we have a space where we do some practice and breathing, some meditation, but also mindful sharing. So loving speech and mindful listening. So it's like a new thing. So I just put it out there. I'm going to do it on Mondays of two starting in May, and I don't know who's going to show up. Right. Like, so you just started small and then over time, more and more people will come and get it out there and do something that really lights you up, do it for yourself. And then if you've helped one more person, that's, that's one. And then it could.

:: 32:36

Yeah. Yeah. So that's super powerful. It's almost like I'd like to help create sort of a mindfulness playbook for organizations, for grassroots starting organization, almost. Something like that should. Needs to exist. So maybe. Yeah, maybe that's something we can collaborate.

:: 32:52

Yeah.

:: 32:54

Because I know some other people, we could get involved with that, for sure.

:: 32:57

That'd be great, actually. Let's do that. And you were asking about clients, so. Yes, so I do. I have three month and six month coaching programs for professionals, so I do that one on one. And it's for people that feel like they're interested in learning about mindfulness or they know a little bit about it, but they're not sure how to incorporate it into their day or they're just feeling really stressed and overwhelmed at work and want to help them navigate that. So that's one way I work with people. And then I also have programs for organizations. So I have a new thriving lawyer program that's actually in the Los Angeles of Ontario. It's accredited. So you've got professionalism credits as a lawyer and then the thriving workplace. So for organizations, and those are six session programs. And we meet in between. We meet throughout the six. We meet for six sessions and then also I provide in between support to really test out the tools, see how they're working for you, and then go back and tweak them. So it's really about learning to practice. Right. Whether it's one on one or as a group. What are the practices? I do a variety of practices. So which are the ones that work best for your life? Your goals and getting really close what those goals and intentions are for your life so that you can build your mindfulness or yoga therapy practice in a way that supports you. So the tool should fit you, not the. You don't need to fit into the tool. You don't need to.

:: 34:32

Right. So you're customizing it for the individual because there's all kinds of neural diversions out there and needs and focuses and priorities. So that's really, really wise and a great service to your clients. And so there's individual work, there's group work, and then work with organizations.

:: 34:51

That's right.

:: 34:52

Powerful. And so livethepresent Ca is where you can. Is that your website? Livethepresent ca. That's why I want to encourage listeners to check it out and see all the great work that Pamela is doing. And as you can tell, she is making a difference. And I'm so happy that we intersected. And so, you know, what, what advice would you give people as we leave, like coaches and other helping professionals to help them sort of begin to integrate some of your insights into their lives? What might you leave this with?

:: 35:25

Yeah, so I actually named one of my worksheets, which you can get on, on my website. It's called three steps to turn stress into your superpower. So I think a big misconception has been that mindfulness should be about reducing stress, letting go of stress. There's no stress, but stress is a part of life. So it's once we can understand what are our habitual stress responses and then work with them so that we can reconnect with ourselves, inquire, find that spaciousness, respond effectively to whatever that stressor is. Then, rather than the stress feeling so big and you feel small, all of a sudden the stress is the same, but you get bigger than the stressor. So that's my hope for listeners and for everyone is to know that you're bigger than whatever the challenges that you're facing, because you're also connected to all the other people and to this beautiful earth that we're on. So growing that sense of self to incorporate all things and your own sense of energy and power, and then you'll be limitless because that's what we are.

:: 36:37

So that's in your own, your website, what was it called again?

:: 36:41

Three steps to turn stress into your superpower so you can download it.

:: 36:46

I love that. That's fabulous. Because it's so true that, you know, I sometimes say with the The Mindful Coach Association method, for coaches, your clients who do this work, their problems don't go away. They just get smaller because they get bigger.

:: 36:59

That's right.

:: 37:00

It's exactly how it's so I'm really happy to hear you say that because that really aligns with my own practice. So fun talking to you, and I'm looking forward to working on our playbook for graduation. Mindfulness. And really appreciate you being here on the show. And thank you so much.

:: 37:21

Thanks so much, Brett. Wonderful to be here.

:: 37:25

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